Monday, October 30, 2006
  29/10 – THE PROBLEM OF WELSH NATIONALISM
I had a rather interesting and hypocritical conversation with my grandparents and my father earlier today: about the Welsh language and the Welsh nationalist parties i.e. Plaid Cymru.

There was something which provoked this debate on television, anyway we got onto who would we vote for. Grandfather and grandmother would not vote for Labour again: and, as far as I am aware they haven’t ever voted for anyone else. The Conservatives I know are a no go area, so I suggested Plaid.

Its logical I consider myself a political observer, and an educated voter, I always get all the manifestoes and read through them, so it was perfectly natural for me to suggest another political party.

Oh I wish I hadn’t!

It seemed logical, devout socialists straying from Labour, would go to the other socialist party in Wales, but if they were that simple I wouldn’t bother writing this.

I must state here – because I don’t want to be accused of liable that these are opinions which I do not agree with.

The most exacerbating part of this conversation was when my dad compared Plaid to Sein Fein, Meibion Glyndŵr being its IRA I thought that I would have been too young to remember any correlation but searching the internet has subsequently returned no such connections.

Then my dad went on to claim that its was Plaids ambition that to make all non-Welsh speaking people second class citizens in Wales, again I can find no reference to any such sentiment.

But here comes the hypocritical part my just after saying that she hated learning Welsh school and used language like, “forced to” and “the made us” criticised immigrants for the decline of the Welsh language, the exact phrase she used was, “their children’s children wont be bothered with Welsh” sounds like an ignorant statement. However, her grandparents we Scottish (x2) and English (x2) so her statement was actually correct, since she is not bothered with the language.

Then my grandfather chipped in that when he was a child if some one spoke Welsh they considered him ignorant for not speaking English. For me you’re more ignorant if you refuse to learn a language out of principle, but hey. Are we so ashamed of our own culture, to reject a considerable part of our heritage, to ostracise anyone who displays affiliation with them, apparently we are.

Why do people consider Welsh nationalism so offending to the best of my knowledge no one has ever been killed by the actions of Welsh nationalist organisations, my family even consider the action against the flooding of Treweryn unacceptable, yet they have no moral problems with the flooding of a Welsh valley to provide water for an English city (which has recently been revealed to be unnecessary).

Why are we so ashamed to assert ourselves, our culture, our language, why are we so cowardly not to want to stand up for ourselves!

This is the difficult question to answer, I can think of a few contributory factors but a comprehensive answer, perhaps not.

Factor 1 – The education system, we don’t learn about major event in Welsh history, the conquest by England, the Rebellion of Owain Glyndwr (for Americans Owain Glyndwr is the Welsh version of William Wallace) Treweryn. Etc… the syllabus consists of British history or the English monarchy rather than anything of any cultural meaning in Wales.

Factor 2 – The lack of pluralism in Welsh nationalist politics, Plaid Cymru is the only option and if, like me, you’re a nationalist or a separatist but by no means a socialist then there is not one political party that embodies your views.

Factor 3 – Lack of Separate infrastructure, it is roughly 150 years since the Welsh judiciary was amalgamated with that of England we are so close to England in every way that if is difficult to separate ourselves.

Factor 4 – push / pull, the lack of strong English nationalism, its getting stronger, but there is no force pushing the Welsh out of their comfort zone.

But why has Plaid become so entwined with the dark underside of Welsh nationalism: the dissolved radical elements of Welsh nationalism, were they involved?
 
Comments:
Some thoughts:
- most Plaid politicians (the public ones)are pretty second rate - I know that's true of the gene pool, but it particularly impacts on Plaid
- socialist and nationalist is fine in my book (incoming English btw) but there has to be a connection and that has to be explicit
- Plaid has to get the local and national agendas in tune with each other - so big vision on the environment, for example, and really practical measures where they control or influence local authorities
- be radical, truthful and positive about bilingualism, stop try to use historical models, use the here and now ...
 
I take great offence at your racist comments, with regard to the Welsh gene pool.

It is rather reminiscent of Nazi beliefs and dogma against the Jews.
 
I may be wrong, but perhaps Peter is refering to the 'gene pool' of politicians.

Persnally, I'm a Welsh nationalist and have always voted Plaid - not because I think they are a great party (cetainly not at the moment), but the represnt what's closest to my views.

Both you and Peter highlight an image problem that Plaid have. Your parents think they are racist(?) and divisive, Peter thinks they trouble getting their message across, and being not appearing radical enough.

I'm pro sef-govenrance (I'm actually pro-independance) but both Plaid and I know that the majority are not ready for this - and they try and shy away from it, inviting opponents to accuse them of either not knowing what they want or trying to hide what they want.

The language issue is also a tricky one. They get knocked by non-Welsh speakers for being a one-issue party (which is blatantly not true), and they get knocked by Welsh speakers for not doing enough.

As regards to your family's view of the party, they're just swalloing the Labour lies about the party. i don't want to be rude to them, but they've been Labour voters up until now, and finally waking up to some of the crap they've been fed.
Even before the modern age of spin doctors, labour have used the race/langigae card to great affect against Plaid rather than arguing against their policies.

Plaid have another problem which you touch upon, that it' such a broad church. If you are a nationalist but are not socialist, who do you go with. Being such a broad church is difficult. Plaid have lost two very promising members in Seimon Brooks and Guto Bebb (although it might be more to do with personal issues rather than them being more to the right!)

Back onto the subject of language, Simon Brooks has written an excellent essay in a book called 'The Idiom off Dissent' by Gomer (hope this link works). It was featured in the June/July or August edition of CAMBRIA magazine if you can get a back copy.
Brooks talks about how Labour accused anyone discussing the porblems of Welsh speakin wales as racist and anti-english, using the case of Cymuned members as an example and how the press in Wales (owned by Labour supporting Trinity Mirror) miss-quoted/translated remarks and made false claims which went unchallenged. he also condems Plaid Cymrmu for not backing it's own members - giving impression the attacks were justified.

(Hope you talk your family round by election time ;-) )
 
Maybe I did snap at Peter's comments and if he did mean politicans gene pool rather then the general gene pool of Wales then I apologise.

My father and paternal grandparents associate Plaid Cymru with the terrorist organisations such as FWA and Meibion Glyndŵr. An association that is unrepeated anywhere on the internet, and since the FWA had their day in court without Plaid Cymru leaders in the dock next to them, I doubt that any actual cooboration between the two groups did occur.

I sympathise with Plaid Cymru because I believe in Welsh nationalism, and Welsh independence. Like Rhys I acknowledge that Plaid Cymru can not be so bold on the matter of independence as the SNP (within 100 days of election a bill of independence shall be brought) because the majority of Welsh people would not go for it.

I have noticed how Labour, particulary, put down any Nationalist sentiment in Wales unfortunatly even though my family are moving away from New Labout they are steadfastly Old Labour, from valleys commuities, so they are not moving towards anyone else.

As for me I think that I will be voting for anyone that promises a Parliament or Senedd for Wales, I noticed that Charles Kennedy in his conference speach said there sould be a Welsh Parliament if this becomes party policy then I will be looking at their manifesto very carefully.
 
The FWA Plaid link is laughable - or it would be if people didn't believe it. As rhys said, it's just Labour lies alongside the "Plaid will make you speak Welsh" bollox.
I've just joined Plaid - precisely because it's pro-independence and socialist. The younger generation is far less imbued with the colonial mentality of old (the Kinnockite idea that we can't rule ourselves) and left-wing ideas of community, solidarity and democracy still have support in Wales.
Guto Bebb joined the Tories because he's a right-winger who disagreed with Plaid on Europe. Good - glad he's gone. Simon Brooks is intelligent but a maverick - I'm not even sure he was in Plaid.
 
It has always been Liberal Democrat policy that Wales will have a Parliament equal to that in Scotland and our manifestos are written on the basis that we will have introduced this.
 
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